No Andrea, he wasn't fired just because of the loss against D.C. United (altough it was the last straw - it seems). This has been brewing for a long time and quite frankly, it's surprising Chepo lasted this long. He has said he thought he was going to get the ax after the Toluca loss. If you had followed Chivas all season long you'll realize this had nothing to do with the "U.S. - Mexico rivalry" but rather the poor form Chivas has shown this season. It didn't matter that it was D.C. United. He would have gotten fired even if they lost against a non-American rival.
If you read the article it states three reasons for this and nowhere does it referrnce anything about losing to an American team. It has more to do with the team run of form and poor results (as well as decreasing attendance). This has surprised no one and the writing on the wall for Chepo has been there for a long time. Chivas has been a team in disarray all season. Irregardless of what you say, this has nothing to do with the U.S. Mexico rivalry or having D.C. do the "honors". Get real.
yeah Andrea but it had nothing to do that it was D.C. United and that they're American. He would have gotten fired even if they had lost against Huachipato! When I read this, the "rivalry" didn't even come up in my mind. If you revel in the "rivalry" that great (I do), but it had no bearing in this decision, in my opinion.
Has there been a Mexican National team coach that has gotten fired because he lost to the U.S.? Aguirre in '02 does not count since the FMF asked him to stay and he opted to go to Osasuna in Spain? What Mexican coach has gotten fired for losing to the US?
You, see, that's the point. You say it would have made no difference if Chivas lost to DC or some nobody team. What that implies is that DC is considered by many to be on the same level as a nobody team, so losing to them is seen as a shame. That's exactly my point about why so many coaches get fired after losing to the U.S.
I don't think it has much to do with the rivalry at all. It's due to thefact that so many in Mexico still consider all U.S. teams inferior competition. They don't think they should lose to them, ever, and there are consequences when they do.
You're telling me that if Chep has lost to Barcelona, he'd have gotten fired? Probably not.
I don't agree with that. Mexican teams respect U.S teams now. I don't think they consider them as "nobody teams". They take them very seriously. Just ask Pachuca what they think of Houston and Chivas what they think of D.C. And to answer your question: yes, I do think that Chepo would have gotten fired if he had lost to Barcelona. I follow Chivas closely and Vergara was basically fed up. It was time to go.
Well, at this point, the speculation that Chepo would have been fired if he lost to anyone else is just that. The bottom line is, he was fired after losing to DC United.
If you consider it a complete coincidence, so be it. I do not.
Manuel Lapuente, Miguel Mejia Baron, Bora Milutinovic, Enrique Meza all came under heavy pressure shortly after losses to the U.S. and either resigned or were fired.
Javier Aguirre, well, you can say he was off to Osasuna anyway. Do you have a link to that info where the FMF wanted to keep him? What I do know is that his last game as head coach of El Tri was the U.S. loss.
Here's the link that announces Aguirre signed with Osasuna during the World Cup in '02. Please note that he signed with Osasuna while in group play even before they played Italy. Hence, he was not "fired" or "resigned" becasue of the loss to the U.S. Also, in the article it says that Enrique Meza was fired for losses to Costa Rica (first ever in Azteca) and Honduras, not to the U.S. Here's the link:
Andrea, one last thing: Can you provide a "link" that proves your statement below:
"Manuel Lapuente, Miguel Mejia Baron, Bora Milutinovic, Enrique Meza all came under heavy pressure shortly after losses to the U.S. and either resigned or were fired."
Well, Lapuente quit after losing to the US in the 91 Gold Cup. Bora was fired after a 3-3 tie with Costa Rica after a 0-0 tie with the US in Azteca in 97.
Meza was a mess from the start while Mejia Baron had a poor 94 world cup. But those two were also criticized for losing to the US. Meza though had a terrible start in qualifying after the 2-0 loss in Ohio in Feb 2001.
I didn't say that Aguirre was fired or resigned. You brought him up. I asked for a link to info that the FMF wanted to keep him after he lost to the U.S. The fact that Osasuna wanted him doesn't confirm that Mexico wanted him back.
I never said that they asked him (Aguirre) to stay after the loss to the U.S. As the link I provided indicated the decision was made that he was leaving after the world cup regardless of the outcome (way before the U.S. game). What came out afterwards was that Aguirre made the commitment to Osasuna before the World Cup even started and the FMF asked him to reconsider while he was negotiating with Osasuna. It was widely reported in shows such as "La Jugada" and Raul Orvañanos interviewed him in detail about this alongside Alberto De La Torre (FMF president then). This was a TV show back in 2002 and I'm sure it was reported on the internet. If I find time to find a link, I'll gladly post it. I have been following the FMF very closely since 1993 so I do have a good idea of what I am talking about (although I have been wrong from time to time, just not about this:-)
Anyways, I digress and this post was about Chepo and your theory that Mexican managers get axed after losing to U.S. teams. Obviously I disagree with your theory.
"Manuel Lapuente, Miguel Mejia Baron, Bora Milutinovic, Enrique Meza all came under heavy pressure shortly after losses to the U.S. and either resigned or were fired."
Wasn't Meza fired after losing to Costa Rica in the Azteca? Like Luis said his tenure was a mess from the start, but the Costa Rica match was what got him axed. It didn't help that they lost to Honduras, T&T, and the US during his reign either.
I'm gonna have to agree with the others here that you're reaching for a reason to pull in the US/Mexico rivalry. I also think you're reading too much into the poster's comments about losing to DC United or "Huachipato". He was just giving an example not saying that DC was a nothing team. Sometimes you're good Andrea, but other times you really can't keep your homerism out of your writing.
I'm sure that DC fans are all convinced I'm a homer for their team. You're the one reaching if you believe that losses to the U.S. don't affect Mexico's coaches. More recently, LaVolpe was on thin ice after the Mexico squad lost to the U.S., even though World Cup qualification was virtually assured. Players had to rally around him to save his job.
Costa Rica was the last straw in Meza's case, but the ball got rolling with the U.S. losses. And Meza was just one of the coaches I mentioned.
Here's an even more recent example. When I interviewed Pachuca's star player, Christian Giménez, he told me before the Galaxy match that he'd been informed by both teammates and fans that facing the U.S. teams wasn't like facing other squads. "We're expected to win. We are told not to let them down. They are unforgiving if we do. It's very, very important not to lose to a U.S. team."
I posted the audio clip to that part of the post-match press conference, incidentally.
I thought that was one of the more interesting parts of the game. We know how the respective national teams feel about each other but this was an Argentine-born player who had no direct involvement with the national teams' rivalry commenting on the footballing rivalry between the two nations. And he had some good things to say.
Interesting that L.B mentions Velibor, he plays an important role in all of this..
Bora was the U.S coach when they defeated Lanpuente's Mexico in Gold Cup 91, in many ways that set the gears in motion.
Perhaps, the only coach that got sacked for losing to the U.S was Miguel Mejia Baron, who lost 4-0 in the Nike Cup and via penalty Kicks in Copa America 95 and even then it was two loses.
Bora soon replaced Baron only to be ousted, after qualifying the team to the World Cup, due to political reasons. However, he did not lose to the U.S.
Milutinovic's situation was the highlight of the Television wars, at that point they must have been at their peak.
T.V Azteca even had an anti Bora campaign and would manipulate images to make it seem as the whole stadium was chanting "fuera bora"!!
Here is a great article that explains in detail the Television (Azteca/Televisa) war that has affected the National team.
That said losing to the U.S, and CONCACAF teams for that matter, has been used by the media as a reason to sack a coach.
It was used against Hugo in the recent Gold Cup after the loss to Honduras. And despite losing the final to the U.S he was not sacked, neither was Meza or Lavolpe who were defeated in WCQ games.
And much less Aguirre who lost in the biggest stage of them all, the 02 World Cup. Instead he was offered an even bigger contract.
Like el Chueco stated Aguirre had already signed with Osasuna so he turned down the FMF's offer.
Despite all the pressure and rivalry the FMF signs a deal with SUM and plays the majority of "friendlies" in U.S soil.
Mexico must be the only country to play a "friendly" against their Rivals at least once a year.
While losing to the yanks, club and country, is frowned upon saying that in Mexico they take the loss to such an extent as to fire the coach is stretching it..
I guess what makes this even more confusing is how the American press Over-Hypes situations in order to SELL the sport in the U.S.
No Andrea, he wasn't fired just because of the loss against D.C. United (altough it was the last straw - it seems). This has been brewing for a long time and quite frankly, it's surprising Chepo lasted this long. He has said he thought he was going to get the ax after the Toluca loss. If you had followed Chivas all season long you'll realize this had nothing to do with the "U.S. - Mexico rivalry" but rather the poor form Chivas has shown this season. It didn't matter that it was D.C. United. He would have gotten fired even if they lost against a non-American rival.
ReplyDeleteActually, I was aware that Chepo was on thin ice. That doesn't change the fact that the DC loss pushed Chepo over the edge and out.
ReplyDeleteIf you read the article it states three reasons for this and nowhere does it referrnce anything about losing to an American team. It has more to do with the team run of form and poor results (as well as decreasing attendance). This has surprised no one and the writing on the wall for Chepo has been there for a long time. Chivas has been a team in disarray all season. Irregardless of what you say, this has nothing to do with the U.S. Mexico rivalry or having D.C. do the "honors". Get real.
ReplyDeleteYeah, well, when national team coaches got fired after losing to the U.S., that wasn't given as the "official reason" either.
ReplyDeleteyeah Andrea but it had nothing to do that it was D.C. United and that they're American. He would have gotten fired even if they had lost against Huachipato! When I read this, the "rivalry" didn't even come up in my mind. If you revel in the "rivalry" that great (I do), but it had no bearing in this decision, in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteHas there been a Mexican National team coach that has gotten fired because he lost to the U.S.? Aguirre in '02 does not count since the FMF asked him to stay and he opted to go to Osasuna in Spain? What Mexican coach has gotten fired for losing to the US?
ReplyDeleteYou, see, that's the point. You say it would have made no difference if Chivas lost to DC or some nobody team. What that implies is that DC is considered by many to be on the same level as a nobody team, so losing to them is seen as a shame. That's exactly my point about why so many coaches get fired after losing to the U.S.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it has much to do with the rivalry at all. It's due to thefact that so many in Mexico still consider all U.S. teams inferior competition. They don't think they should lose to them, ever, and there are consequences when they do.
You're telling me that if Chep has lost to Barcelona, he'd have gotten fired? Probably not.
I don't agree with that. Mexican teams respect U.S teams now. I don't think they consider them as "nobody teams". They take them very seriously. Just ask Pachuca what they think of Houston and Chivas what they think of D.C. And to answer your question: yes, I do think that Chepo would have gotten fired if he had lost to Barcelona. I follow Chivas closely and Vergara was basically fed up. It was time to go.
ReplyDeleteWell, at this point, the speculation that Chepo would have been fired if he lost to anyone else is just that. The bottom line is, he was fired after losing to DC United.
ReplyDeleteIf you consider it a complete coincidence, so be it. I do not.
Manuel Lapuente, Miguel Mejia Baron, Bora Milutinovic, Enrique Meza all came under heavy pressure shortly after losses to the U.S. and either resigned or were fired.
Javier Aguirre, well, you can say he was off to Osasuna anyway. Do you have a link to that info where the FMF wanted to keep him? What I do know is that his last game as head coach of El Tri was the U.S. loss.
Hahahaha
ReplyDeleteI love the way these guys make your point for you.
Hi Andrea,
ReplyDeleteHere's the link that announces Aguirre signed with Osasuna during the World Cup in '02. Please note that he signed with Osasuna while in group play even before they played Italy. Hence, he was not "fired" or "resigned" becasue of the loss to the U.S. Also, in the article it says that Enrique Meza was fired for losses to Costa Rica (first ever in Azteca) and Honduras, not to the U.S. Here's the link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport3/worldcup2002/hi/team_pages/mexico/newsid_2030000/2030198.stm
Bob Ramsey: I think the only thing that was proven is that you are not very bright.
Andrea, one last thing: Can you provide a "link" that proves your statement below:
ReplyDelete"Manuel Lapuente, Miguel Mejia Baron, Bora Milutinovic, Enrique Meza all came under heavy pressure shortly after losses to the U.S. and either resigned or were fired."
I think that's a stretch.
Well, Lapuente quit after losing to the US in the 91 Gold Cup. Bora was fired after a 3-3 tie with Costa Rica after a 0-0 tie with the US in Azteca in 97.
ReplyDeleteMeza was a mess from the start while Mejia Baron had a poor 94 world cup. But those two were also criticized for losing to the US.
Meza though had a terrible start in qualifying after the 2-0 loss in Ohio in Feb 2001.
Bottom line is that Chepo leading Chivas to the title last year didn't buy him much cushion.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if Chivas will score 5 goals Saturday night ... and conceed 4?
I didn't say that Aguirre was fired or resigned. You brought him up. I asked for a link to info that the FMF wanted to keep him after he lost to the U.S. The fact that Osasuna wanted him doesn't confirm that Mexico wanted him back.
ReplyDeleteI never said that they asked him (Aguirre) to stay after the loss to the U.S. As the link I provided indicated the decision was made that he was leaving after the world cup regardless of the outcome (way before the U.S. game). What came out afterwards was that Aguirre made the commitment to Osasuna before the World Cup even started and the FMF asked him to reconsider while he was negotiating with Osasuna. It was widely reported in shows such as "La Jugada" and Raul Orvañanos interviewed him in detail about this alongside Alberto De La Torre (FMF president then). This was a TV show back in 2002 and I'm sure it was reported on the internet. If I find time to find a link, I'll gladly post it. I have been following the FMF very closely since 1993 so I do have a good idea of what I am talking about (although I have been wrong from time to time, just not about this:-)
ReplyDeleteAnyways, I digress and this post was about Chepo and your theory that Mexican managers get axed after losing to U.S. teams. Obviously I disagree with your theory.
"Manuel Lapuente, Miguel Mejia Baron, Bora Milutinovic, Enrique Meza all came under heavy pressure shortly after losses to the U.S. and either resigned or were fired."
ReplyDeleteWasn't Meza fired after losing to Costa Rica in the Azteca? Like Luis said his tenure was a mess from the start, but the Costa Rica match was what got him axed. It didn't help that they lost to Honduras, T&T, and the US during his reign either.
I'm gonna have to agree with the others here that you're reaching for a reason to pull in the US/Mexico rivalry. I also think you're reading too much into the poster's comments about losing to DC United or "Huachipato". He was just giving an example not saying that DC was a nothing team. Sometimes you're good Andrea, but other times you really can't keep your homerism out of your writing.
I'm sure that DC fans are all convinced I'm a homer for their team. You're the one reaching if you believe that losses to the U.S. don't affect Mexico's coaches. More recently, LaVolpe was on thin ice after the Mexico squad lost to the U.S., even though World Cup qualification was virtually assured. Players had to rally around him to save his job.
ReplyDeleteCosta Rica was the last straw in Meza's case, but the ball got rolling with the U.S. losses. And Meza was just one of the coaches I mentioned.
Here's an even more recent example. When I interviewed Pachuca's star player, Christian Giménez, he told me before the Galaxy match that he'd been informed by both teammates and fans that facing the U.S. teams wasn't like facing other squads. "We're expected to win. We are told not to let them down. They are unforgiving if we do. It's very, very important not to lose to a U.S. team."
I posted the audio clip to that part of the post-match press conference, incidentally.
ReplyDeleteI thought that was one of the more interesting parts of the game. We know how the respective national teams feel about each other but this was an Argentine-born player who had no direct involvement with the national teams' rivalry commenting on the footballing rivalry between the two nations. And he had some good things to say.
One word "PWNED", LOLz.
ReplyDeleteInteresting that L.B mentions Velibor, he plays an important role in all of this..
Bora was the U.S coach when they defeated Lanpuente's Mexico in Gold Cup 91, in many ways that set the gears in motion.
Perhaps, the only coach that got sacked for losing to the U.S was Miguel Mejia Baron, who lost 4-0 in the Nike Cup and via penalty Kicks in Copa America 95 and even then it was two loses.
Bora soon replaced Baron only to be ousted, after qualifying the team to the World Cup, due to political reasons. However, he did not lose to the U.S.
Milutinovic's situation was the highlight of the Television wars, at that point they must have been at their peak.
T.V Azteca even had an anti Bora campaign and would manipulate images to make it seem as the whole stadium was chanting "fuera bora"!!
Here is a great article that explains in detail the Television (Azteca/Televisa) war that has affected the National team.
http://especiales.proceso.com.mx/noticia.html?nid=40666&cat=5
That said losing to the U.S, and CONCACAF teams for that matter, has been used by the media as a reason to sack a coach.
It was used against Hugo in the recent Gold Cup after the loss to Honduras. And despite losing the final to the U.S he was not sacked, neither was Meza or Lavolpe who were defeated in WCQ games.
And much less Aguirre who lost in the biggest stage of them all, the 02 World Cup. Instead he was offered an even bigger contract.
Like el Chueco stated Aguirre had already signed with Osasuna so he turned down the FMF's offer.
Despite all the pressure and rivalry the FMF signs a deal with SUM and plays the majority of "friendlies" in U.S soil.
Mexico must be the only country to play a "friendly" against their Rivals at least once a year.
While losing to the yanks, club and country, is frowned upon saying that in Mexico they take the loss to such an extent as to fire the coach is stretching it..
I guess what makes this even more confusing is how the American press Over-Hypes situations in order to SELL the sport in the U.S.